The Vegetarian Myth

| January 6, 2012 | 25 Comments

Peak Moment 191: What we eat is destroying both our bodies and the planet, according to author Lierre Keith, a recovering twenty-year vegan. While she passionately opposes factory farming of animals, she maintains that humans require nutrient-dense animal foods for good health. A grain-based diet is the basis for degenerative diseases?we take for granted?(diabetes, cancer, heart disease) – diseases?of civilization. Annual grain production is destroying topsoil and creating deserts on a planetary scale.? Lierre urges the restoration of perennial polycultures for longterm sustainability.
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  1. Atheogen says:

    @celt130 So, you’ve basically gone from saying plants feel pain and suffer, to animals don’t feel pain, to animals feel less pain than humans.
    BACKTRACK BACKTRACK.

  2. Atheogen says:

    @celt130 Misted? Actually I had begun to suspect you were self flagging your comments to appear as if I did not address you.
    Just how big do you think those differences are? And central cortex deals with EMOTIONS as well as pain and primitive innate responses like fear. So the relative decrease in brain size isn’t as big a decrease in physical pain as your limited mind presumes, because a larger central cortex caters for emotions etc.
    And it doesn’t even address neuron density etc.

  3. Atheogen says:

    @celt130 meat on this PLANET includes most of the developing world,. which has most of the developing countries. You know full well the country you are from embraces factory farming to provide meat.

  4. celt130 says:

    @Atheogen
    “The larger size of our brain deals with things like abstract thinking and cognitive thought, Not increased nervous sensitivity”
    Didn’t you read the LARGER CENTRAL CORTEX and pain issues, you misted that one, bad boy.
    Well I am off, see you tomorrow.

  5. celt130 says:

    @Atheogen
    “You’re studies were not new. And you’re just dismissing the studies, if they’re so outdated, it should be easy for you to find evidence against them.”
    WAY, newer then yours, why not prove them wrong with some newer data.
    1991,1993 doesn’t beat 2001 and beyond.
    Nice try anyway.

  6. Atheogen says:

    @celt130 YES we’re talking science here, so why would there be a scientific reason for humans feeling more physical pain. The larger size of our brain deals with things like abstract thinking and cognitive thought, Not increased nervous sensitivity. I’m talking science here, You’re merely showing flat out misunderstanding.

  7. celt130 says:

    @Atheogen
    “However, one area of great importance for pain perception in humans is the cortex and its relative size decreases as we descend the evolutionary tree. ”
    “although differences probably do exist by comparison with humans, notably in respect of certain cerebral structures (Bateson, 1991). In this regard, the degree of cortical development has to be considered (Vierck, 1976)”
    “Animal pain should not be confused with human pain.”

  8. Atheogen says:

    @celt130 You’re studies were not new. And you’re just dismissing the studies, if they’re so outdated, it should be easy for you to find evidence against them.
    The last desperate acts of a failing mindset. You exhibit them well.

  9. celt130 says:

    @Atheogen
    “Smith & Boyd (1991)”
    Still really new studies here.

  10. celt130 says:

    @Atheogen
    “Can you give me a scientifically based reason as to why humans would feel pain more than animals?”
    What an idiotic question, really. Why did nature give us such a large brain and a conscience? We are talking science here, not bar talk.

  11. celt130 says:

    @Atheogen
    “YEAH, because (Vierck, 1976) and (Bateson, 1991). is much better.ke hypocrite you are.”
    HAHAHA, in fact the article is from 2001, these are past scientific REFERENCES the author uses in his own work as you find in ALL scientific articles.
    Well, I thought you where an academic, a smart boy. Seems to be wrong on that to…

  12. Atheogen says:

    @celt130 The studies you provided said nothing. I’ve debunked this, you haven’t provided the reason as to why they support you, therefore you can not keep claiming your provide 3 studies.

  13. Atheogen says:

    @celt130 On the basis of these criteria, Varner follows Smith & Boyd in concluding tentatively that the most obvious place to draw a line between pain-conscious organisms and those not capable of feeling pain consciously is between vertebrates and invertebrates.

    On the basis of these criteria the cut off line would be between vertebrates and invertebrates.
    Hm. Funny, not your magical fairy humans and animals cut off line.

  14. Atheogen says:

    @celt130 Smith & Boyd (1991) assess the evidence for the pain-sensing capabilities of animals in the categories of whether nociceptors are connected to the central nervous system, whether endogenous opioids are present, whether analgesics affect responses, and whether the ensuing behavioral responses are analogous to those of humans (see table 2.3 in Varner 1998, p. 53, which updates the one presented by Smith & Boyd).

  15. Atheogen says:

    @celt130 Your arguments are based on a flawed anthropocentrist viewpoint. Can you give me a scientifically based reason as to why humans would feel pain more than animals? There is not one, other than “I’m human”.

  16. celt130 says:

    @Atheogen
    “(Nottenbohm, 1977; Jerison, 1997),
    And then the great PROBLEM with what you provided; NOWHERE is there any comparison between the pain in animals opposed to the one humans feel.
    I provided already 3 such studies, you none.
    Nice try, but no, failure.

  17. Atheogen says:

    @celt130 To be honest it’s clear to see you came to this discussion with no knowledge on nociception, neurobiology in vertebrates or even a basic preschoolers knowledge on plant biology.
    Any credible scientist with expertise on neurobiology will laugh at your pathetic attempts for arguments. I’m still waiting to see you prove animals feel less pain than humans. The whole of modern science could be my source. Where’s yours?

  18. Atheogen says:

    @celt130 YEAH, because (Vierck, 1976) and (Bateson, 1991). is much better.
    What a fucking joke hypocrite you are.

  19. celt130 says:

    @Atheogen
    “Where was the conclusion that the pain animals felt was LESS. From barlow’s text you could even conclude they feel more.”
    OUPS, smarty boy, Barlow talked about the possibility of a neural system in plants.
    He didn’t talk about ANIMAL PAIN.
    Please follow the conversation, thanks…

  20. Atheogen says:

    @celt130 “The question of pain in animals can be approached only with anthropomorphic references, although differences probably do exist by comparison with humans, notably in respect of certain cerebral structures (Bateson, 1991)”
    Although differences probably do exist.
    This? This meek, ambiguous and non concluding passage of text is what you base your scientifically illiterate conclusion that animals feel less pain than humans on?
    You’re a clown.

  21. Atheogen says:

    @celt130 I’VE REPLIED TO BARLOW TWICE NOW. the passage you linked me DID NOT conclude animals feel less pain. What part said they feel less pain?
    Where was the conclusion that the pain animals felt was LESS. From barlow’s text you could even conclude they feel more.
    Seriously, how can you not freaking get this through your skull.

  22. celt130 says:

    @Atheogen
    “STILL says nothing about animals feeling LESS or MORE pain. There’s no conclusion. ON THE OTHER HAND. If you want to attempt to use studies, make sure they’re freaking relevant.”
    HAHAHA, no really these articles are not clear on the differences in pain between humans and animals. Sure they are smarty.

  23. celt130 says:

    @Atheogen
    ” Nottenbohm, 1977; Jerison, 1997), ”
    Whaw, really NEW stuff, isn’t it. You know science evolves over the years…
    You should look at the dates of the studies I provided…

  24. celt130 says:

    @Atheogen
    “Look, you can’t just post something that’s researched by a scientist and claim it supports your point when it clearly does nothing of the sort”
    Well I already posted 3 of them, a problem maybe for you…
    “Where does any of the things you have listed show animals feel LESS pain than humans”
    yes, surely they do not say animals feel less pain then humans, only a blind hypocrite couldn’t see that .
    So still no reply on Barlow, why?

  25. Atheogen says:

    @celt130 Our review of the literature on frontal cortex development enables us to conclude that all mammals, including rats, have a sufficiently developed prefrontal cortex to suffer from pain. In birds and reptiles which have some analogous frontal lobe structures and functions (Nottenbohm, 1977; Jerison, 1997), suffering from pain may be more likely to be overridden with fear, but they appear to suffer from pain, especially chronic pain.
    Animals SUFFER from pain. Plants can NOT.

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